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Richie at Crimitism has hit another nail in the head with his post on "Nice Guys", and the webcomic he parsed for the post.  I encourage people to read and enjoy; it's one of the reasons I link to his blog in my sidebar (links list updated every now and then - check it out!).

One thing that guys need to understand is that the "nice guy" is not nice.  He's a creep, a whiny, sex-obsessed, condescending asshole who can't understand that the reason he never gets laid is because he's hiding his desire to get laid under a facade of "I respect women!", and it's so fake it screams "stalker!" to every girl with an ounce of sense in her*.  Sure, girls like bad boys and it sometimes sucks (my own particular bad boy is awesome though, thankyewverymuch), but nice guys need to stop fooling themselves that they're a better alternative, because frequently, they're just the flip side of the "women are not worth anything except as sex objects" Pickup Artist coin.

No, really - ask a girl about a self-professed "nice guy", and she'll say "well, he's a nice guy, but - " and that "but" tells you all you need to know.  She's trying not to be a bitch about someone who leaves her completely cold, not because he's not interesting enough, but because he gives off a bad vibe that even if she can't put it into words, tells her that dating this guy will be bad news.

If she wants a stalker, on the other hand - most stalkers think of themselves as NGs, did you know that?  They tell the object of their stalking that they love them, will take care of them, and all sorts of icky stuff, but their fantasy is missing the key component in any real relationship - the permission of the woman they're stalking.  Yet, when asked, they protest that they love the object of their fascination, and that if she only got to know him, they'd totes fall in love and live happily ever after (until he kills her for trying to leave him).

Eeek.

NGs , though not stalkers (mostly) give off a similar vibe, in that the interest of the woman they want to date is massively secondary to their interest in dating her.  Again, this really becomes obvious pretty quickly - the NG doesn't even accord his "love interest" the intelligence to realize he thinks this way, and he never cottons on to the fact that she keeps him at arm's length as "just a friend" because she's not interested at all, but she's too nice to say GTFO.  Instead, he thinks she's just too dumb to see what a great guy he is, and if he only hangs around enough, she'll totes see that, and they'll live happily ever after, like it's the movies, man.  God, women are so stupid!  Why don't they see what a Nice Guy he is?!.

(This "too nice to say no" phenomenon is a separate problem that women have, being deeply conditioned to be kind to everyone, not helped at all by the fact that NGs, when finally rebuffed, will show their true colours and tell her what a bitch she is because she said no [reinforcing the "must ne nice to everyone!" programming].  Because, of course, if she knew what was good for her, she'd absolutely say yes to this guy who just called her a bitch for daring to refuse him.)

(totes.)

Because it's not, nor is it ever, about what the woman wants, it's only about what the NG wants.  All those "nice" things he says he does?  They're just manipulation, building up a debt to him that can only be repaid with sex, and we're bitches if we say no.  Because men are owed sex, somehow.  Because women shouldn't be allowed to refuse a man who wants them.  Which leads to the creepy manipulative behaviour that NGs pull out once the chips are down.

"Romantic" movies frequently perpetuate this idea - most specifically in the trope that when a girl turns a guy down, she just needs a little "persuasion" to see what a great guy he is.  In the real world, this is called stalking.  It only works in the movies, and the NG in the movies is a whiny little ass who ends up with a gorgeous girl who doesn't deserve to be stuck bywith a loser like him only because whiny little NGs write, direct, and most importantly, produce most of these movies (Suck it, Judd Apatow). 

For God's sake - most women given a choice between the two, will pick a jerk over the nice guy, because at least the jerk will be more fun than a damp cold flannel.  But given an honest choice?  Women will almost always go for the man who treats them like a real, live human being, not a sex doll. 

But that's a lesson the NG seems to have skipped.  
 

*To clarify:  I am not blaming any woman who got mixed up with a NG and got the worst end of it.  Some of them are sneakier than others, and it's not any woman's fault that she got deceived by a slimeball.

*To clarify a bit further, just in case anyone goes back through the archives and reads this with the wrong end of their stick, I am not referring to men who are genuinely nice, I'm talking about the "Nice Guy", as in (referenced above) "He's a nice guy, but...".  Need further clarification?  Read the Crimitism post.

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( 69 brains — Leave a chunk of brain! )
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elfie_chan
Apr. 21st, 2009 04:11 pm (UTC)
See, this is one of the reasons why I love Planned Parenthood. (Stay with me here; I'll explain.)

In Planned Parenthood, they have these signs that talk about dating and people's rights and responsibilities in a dating relationship. One of those is "You are not obligated to have sex, even if your date was expensive." More people on all sides of the dating relationship need to realize that, in that relationship, you don't owe your partner sex. Ever.

Whiny nice guys drive me nuts. So do guys who don't respect my personal space. Thank God my parents raised me to believe that I have the right to be treated like a human being, and that I deserve to have my boundaries respected.

Sorry, that was a long post to say, "YES! I agree with you absolutely!"
reasie
Apr. 21st, 2009 04:47 pm (UTC)
oh, here here!
also... oo tea...
*touches*
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etinterrapax
Apr. 21st, 2009 04:15 pm (UTC)
I dated one of those in high school. He was so nice that he went through my crowd of friends like a virus, while they, and he, kept me in the dark. Because he's so nice. They didn't want to hurt me! My feelings, so delicate! I really did know a bunch of assholes in my youth.
attack_laurel
Apr. 21st, 2009 04:27 pm (UTC)
High school is rife with these parasites. They're in the larval human stage, and some of them may learn to actually be human beings, but in the meantime, they're evil.
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devikat
Apr. 21st, 2009 04:18 pm (UTC)
Was it you who posted the comments on the XKCD comic satirizing the "nice guy" thing? (Which I can't seem to find now...)

Also, this is why I always think of this song as the stalker song. But of course this song is okay, 'cause they're just all emo and misunderstood... and a nice guy! (I kinda want to do an evil creepy cover version, 'cause for some reason, I really like the song, but I can't get over the 'stalker factor'...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmS0Kjxs2v4
attack_laurel
Apr. 21st, 2009 04:21 pm (UTC)
Alas, it was not me, but it would have been nice. :)
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reasie
Apr. 21st, 2009 04:49 pm (UTC)
If I had a penny for every time a total ASS whined to me, "Marie, why do women date jerks? They should be with nice guys like me!"

And the silence, the ringing silence, as I think, "You're a total dick!!!"

:P

But I could never articulate HOW they were total dicks.

The guys they call jerks have one up on them - a big one. They're honest. "Hi! I'm only interested in sex. But I'm hot? Wanna bang?" *jumps on jerky guy*
attack_laurel
Apr. 21st, 2009 05:01 pm (UTC)
Tell them that whining is a total turn-off, and watch them turn themselves inside-out trying to prove they're not whiny. Giggle as their voice goes up three octaves. It's fun. It's not nice, but it's fun.
heatermcca
Apr. 21st, 2009 04:53 pm (UTC)
Reality icon for NGs
Narrowly missed getting involved with a Nice Guy. Didn't know what was quite wrong there till a few years after when I posted the nice guy/Nice Guy comparison essay and my angry response to it - fury that I had to somehow teach my daughter the best way to avoid victimization knowing that the often-told basics are nowhere near enough and are really just a step-off point for victim blaming. NG's responses were VERY enlightening as to what he really thought. The entitlement is strong with this one.

And go figure, for the entire time I've known him his love life has sucked.
chargirlgenius
Apr. 21st, 2009 05:18 pm (UTC)
Why don’t women like you if you’re such a nice guy? Maybe you’re not as nice of a guy as you think that you are. They come in many colors.

My ex was a nice guy. He wasn’t the creepy slimeball that you describe, instead he was a whiney passive aggressive type, that wouldn’t participate in a good argument, but would instead snide remark you to death over the course of years. It only became abundantly clear when I recently had to deal with him again in the retrieval of my cat.
armillary
Apr. 21st, 2009 07:47 pm (UTC)
The key words are "suppressed aggression". Others don't give a crap about the suppression part, they just want someone who doesn't have the aggression, thankyouverymuch.

I don't think I had the aggressivity, I was simply too self-absorbed and spineless to, y'know, ask.
leofsige
Apr. 21st, 2009 05:22 pm (UTC)
I am so pleased you posted this! Reading it and the comments has finally put into perspective something I've been feeling for a long while with a friend. I couldn't quite put my finger on why every single time he said "gosh, it's so awful that you think all men are pigs now..." with that whiny, hang dog expression that I was feeling violated and wanted to run for the hills. I'd finally figured out the violation part a few months back but I now realize he's a Nice Guy. All this nonsense because I needed some serious space after dealing with a very evil man who had me refusing to even flirt because I felt so raw and vulnerable. Understanding is always my key toward healing and now I have one more piece in that healing process! Thanks so much to everyone for their comments!
morrghan92
Apr. 21st, 2009 05:34 pm (UTC)
I just realizes that my ex "Dumbass" was totally a Nice Guy. This explains soooooooooooooooooo much.
sarahbellem
Apr. 21st, 2009 05:39 pm (UTC)
I wanted to respond to this, but my response is so incriminating that I can't put it here out in public. So, f-locked response post it is! To the Batmobile!
heatermcca
Apr. 21st, 2009 05:41 pm (UTC)
To the Wigmobile!

Heh.
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reasdream
Apr. 21st, 2009 07:10 pm (UTC)
Very much about "having a Girlfriend".

Some guys substitute the word "Muse" or "Goddess", but you're right - it's about ownership and possession, about having a tick mark on that sheet. It's also about what they think a girlfriend means - someone who has to listen and care all the time, who won't fight with you or tell you that you're a loser. Because all girlfriends are, in fact, like perfectly supportive, Pleasantville housewives.

I was (continue to be) the object of affection for many a social inept Guy. Some are "Nice Guys", some are actually nice. One of the really strange ones stalked me in High School. I no longer date them out of guilt, but I still haven't learned how to tell them to f* off without blowing a fuse.
(no subject) - fiberferret - Apr. 21st, 2009 09:20 pm (UTC) - Expand
dawnhutchings
Apr. 21st, 2009 06:39 pm (UTC)
My ex husband and my last ex boyfriend were both Nice Guys. Holy Cow ... how could I have missed that?
janabard
Apr. 21st, 2009 06:50 pm (UTC)
(That's the sound of hundreds of your viewers having the same dawning horrific realization...)
nadezhda13
Apr. 21st, 2009 09:00 pm (UTC)
Um, this. Yep.
(no subject) - fiberferret - Apr. 21st, 2009 09:21 pm (UTC) - Expand
cathgrace
Apr. 21st, 2009 07:37 pm (UTC)
It's funny, Paul is such a nice guy. Not a Nice Guy, but a real honest good guy. He has never as far as I am aware asked "why won't anyone date me? I'm a nice guy." Because women were dating him because they were attracted to what a nice guy he was. I think if you have to ask the question or state it yourself, you are not a nice guy, you are a looser who hasn't seen it yet. I always feel like saying to them "Women do date nice guys. See all those fun, thoughtful, independent guys with girlfriends or wives? those are nice guys." Be something attractive yourself and you will attract, talk about it a lot without the rest of the package and you will get nothing.
thornbury
Apr. 21st, 2009 09:02 pm (UTC)
(Hey Laura, you can ignore my comment after I read this one from Catherine.)

THIS I understand. Your comment, right here - that's f*ing wisdom. Brilliant.
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isenglass
Apr. 21st, 2009 08:18 pm (UTC)
I love this song from Rachel Loy:

http://lyrics.payplay.fm/Rachel%20Loy/Love%20Me%20Too%20Much

It reminds me of high school and all those "nice" boys who were such dicks.
thornbury
Apr. 21st, 2009 08:58 pm (UTC)
Thank God I'm not dating...
So, we can't be nice guys, because most women given a choice between the two, will pick a jerk over the nice guy. However, we also can't be the kind of guy who appreciates the Open Source Boob thing (whatever that was). So, nice guys are stalkers who only want sex, and jerks are too forward with women.

No, seriously... I'm seeing a very slim margin between being too nice (stalker) and being too much of a jerk (chauvinistic pig). I don't understand.

Can one be a "nice guy" and really, you know, be a nice guy? One who will move the earth for a woman, but sadly, be let down by the same woman to try and impress the next one?

Again, I'm not dating (I have my wife! I win! Poor woman.) and I'm assuredly not a "nice guy". These are all good, because trying to follow along in my program is leaving me confused.
attack_laurel
Apr. 21st, 2009 10:47 pm (UTC)
Re: Thank God I'm not dating...
You're missing the point, sweetie. These are all extremes, just like women have to be somewhere in between "domineering harpy" and "clinging limpet who centers their entire being around a man - any man". Men who use "But I'm a Nice Guy!" to justify creepy manipulative behaviour, or who regard every woman as a potential sex object and nothing more - ever - are not "nice".

I'm pointing out the character who hides behind a particular facade, so that women don't fall prey to his blandishments. As other people have said, at least a jerk is honest, and when that's all you're looking for, sex with a jerk is better than sex with a clingy child. Just like men are known for having sex with a psycho bitch because she's cute (and they do).

And honestly, the field is pretty wide between creepy "nice guy" and "boob-groping neanderthal". If you can't see that, ask Jake; I'm sure she'll be happy to point out the vast difference between normal, cool guy behaviour, and creepy stalker.

Life is full of romantic disappointments - men and women can go for years (and marriages) before they find their ideal partner, and sometimes, they are too screwed up within theselves to see their relationship sabotaging. It's a crapshoot, but it doesn't benefit anyone to fall back on creepy manipulative games.
Re: Thank God I'm not dating... - thornbury - Apr. 21st, 2009 11:21 pm (UTC) - Expand
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